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Post by fullermj on Nov 11, 2008 16:24:48 GMT -4
here's what I think.... awww.....
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Post by Nethyr on Nov 11, 2008 16:28:02 GMT -4
Some topics for thought (conceived in discussion between Jim and I):
1) Take it as a hypothetical given that God is gone. The Pope just got the news and told the world that from today forward, God is no more. There's a theoretical void where he used to be. Take it as fact. Now that being said, logic follows that angels (in all their forms) are the most powerful divine being in existence. Are they, in the new heavenly order which exists from today forward, gods?
2) Christians say that God is the entity which created everything, and that there are lots of other divine beings out there. Romans said that a whole bunch of entities are all gods and that Zeus is the ruler of their domain (Mind you, Zeus himself was third generation, so it's not a question of seniority). Is this just a question of where each religion sets the "You're a god"-bar and how far it extends away from the central figure?
3) Attempt to define what "a god" is. Not what "God" (the Christian god) is, but what "a god" is to anyone of any faith anywhere in the world. We know this is a difficult if not impossible question, but it seems to be a crucial point of the discussion.
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Post by Nethyr on Nov 11, 2008 19:56:08 GMT -4
It was suggested to me that some background as to why this came up might make it sound a little less hostile / provocative. I was reading "Life of Pi" where a young boy takes interest in Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism at the same time. The leaders of his local places of worship run into each other and get into an argument where the Muslim says that both of the other religions are polytheistic (Hinduism and Christianity). That made me start wondering how the rest of the world views Christianity, hence why I thought I'd toss up the question here.
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Post by Hex on Nov 11, 2008 20:02:04 GMT -4
Some topics for thought (conceived in discussion between Jim and I): 1) Take it as a hypothetical given that God is gone. The Pope just got the news and told the world that from today forward, God is no more. There's a theoretical void where he used to be. Take it as fact. Now that being said, logic follows that angels (in all their forms) are the most powerful divine being in existence. Are they, in the new heavenly order which exists from today forward, gods? 2) Christians say that God is the entity which created everything, and that there are lots of other divine beings out there. Romans said that a whole bunch of entities are all gods and that Zeus is the ruler of their domain (Mind you, Zeus himself was third generation, so it's not a question of seniority). Is this just a question of where each religion sets the "You're a god"-bar and how far it extends away from the central figure? 3) Attempt to define what "a god" is. Not what "God" (the Christian god) is, but what "a god" is to anyone of any faith anywhere in the world. We know this is a difficult if not impossible question, but it seems to be a crucial point of the discussion. Here's an interesting thought: As scientific thought and technology have increased from ancient time, the number of "gods" in religion has decreased. I am sure someone right now is working out a way to prove through science and tehcnology, that God doesn't exist. That book sounds quite interesting.
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Post by Paco_Guerrera on Nov 11, 2008 20:28:22 GMT -4
Some topics for thought (conceived in discussion between Jim and I): We discussed this but I also gave many reasons why Christianity is not polytheistic. 1) Take it as a hypothetical given that God is gone. The Pope just got the news and told the world that from today forward, God is no more. There's a theoretical void where he used to be. Take it as fact. Now that being said, logic follows that angels (in all their forms) are the most powerful divine being in existence. Are they, in the new heavenly order which exists from today forward, gods? The answer is no. Angels are not gods now and would not be gods under the belief system of Christianity regardless of whether God is there or not. Just because Angels are more powerful then humans, does not grant them godhood. Lets say the Angels up and disappeared also. So what now? Are the aliens living on Alpha Centauri who are capable of travelling the galaxy in their faster then light spacecrafts the new gods? God is God, there is no replacement for him (her, it), regardless of power. Now if a brand new religion decided to spring up and based its belief system on the worhip of "Angels" as "gods" then to that very particular church, the angels would be gods, but as far as the mainstream Christianity goes, there is only the one God and no others. 2) Christians say that God is the entity which created everything, and that there are lots of other divine beings out there. Romans said that a whole bunch of entities are all gods and that Zeus is the ruler of their domain (Mind you, Zeus himself was third generation, so it's not a question of seniority). Is this just a question of where each religion sets the "You're a god"-bar and how far it extends away from the central figure? Christians say that there is one God and one God only. This God created everything, and all other beings be they angels, humans, orangutans, or breakfast cereals are not on the same level and never will be no matter what. In the case of pantheons like the Greek gods, people just like assigning leadership roles, and decided that Zeus was the head god of the whole group, but they still considered and worshipped the other gods as GODS. To the ancient greeks the sea was ruled by the GOD Poseidon. His ranking on Mt Olympus had no bearing on his god status. He was simply the god of the sea, and was worshipped as such. Zeus did not create the other gods (except for the ones that were his offspring). He merely ruled over them cause he was Zeus and could shoot lightning at motherfuckers, which was some pretty cool . 3) Attempt to define what "a god" is. Not what "God" (the Christian god) is, but what "a god" is to anyone of any faith anywhere in the world. We know this is a difficult if not impossible question, but it seems to be a crucial point of the discussion. God can not be defined. It means different things to different people. To followers of Christianity however, they are given to believe that God is how I described him previously. He is the creator of all things and is omnipotent. He has no equal and is the one and only God recognized by followers of the Christian religion. Anyone that started to recognize other entities as gods aside from the one God would be branching off into their own personal religion which would no longer be mainstream Christianity, and thus would not be applicable to your initial question of "Is Christianity polytheistic?"
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Post by sizzilysaint on Nov 11, 2008 20:38:29 GMT -4
If christianity is monotheistic because there is a one god who created all the saints and angels and things, then Zoroastrianism and ancient Egyptian religion is monotheistic too
The Zoroastrians had Uhuru-Mazda, the One god who created the others as sub-gods of specific things.
The Egyptians believed in Ptah, the all-things god, the first omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent god within whom all other beings were created.
But let's define Polytheism and Monotheism correctly first, then we can make arguments.
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Post by Paco_Guerrera on Nov 12, 2008 0:46:38 GMT -4
No. Christianity is monotheistic because the people that follow Christianity believe in the existance of a single all powerful God. They do not recognize the existance of ANY OTHER GODS.
The egyptians didnt believe in only one god. They believed in a shitload of gods! Even if there was one creator god amongst the pantheon, they still worshipped and believed in many other deities specifically as gods. This is why they are considered polytheistic. Because they worshipped MORE THEN ONE god.
Christians do not believe in angels and saints as "gods". Christians do not worship any other divine beings as "gods". They worship a single God. Christians may view any other heavenly beings as holy or venerable, but they do not worship them as "gods". The concept of the holy trinity is the only real angle for this argument, and even that still counts as only a single God, since it is the same being in 3 forms.
Im sure we all have a perfectly fine grasp on the correct definitions of Mono and Polytheism thanks. These are not difficult ideas to understand.
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Post by Trixie on Nov 12, 2008 12:18:37 GMT -4
I wouldn't necessarily consider myself a "good Catholic". I never went to Catholic school or studied the religion and have been a twice a year Catholic since my Confirmation, but one of the first things I remember learning were the 10 Commandments and the very first one says there's only one God, and not to worship any others.
Exodus 20:2-7 2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
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Post by Paco_Guerrera on Nov 12, 2008 13:32:42 GMT -4
Well yeah, there IS also that whole 10 Commandments thing.
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Poobar
Attention Whore
Posts: 221
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Post by Poobar on Nov 12, 2008 18:53:43 GMT -4
BONGO
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Post by Paco_Guerrera on Nov 12, 2008 19:07:16 GMT -4
That TV show is still going to happen. Be ready Frank.
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Post by saint on Nov 13, 2008 3:59:41 GMT -4
Jim, you're refuting me based on nomenclature.
Would the ancient egyptians have been able to make the distinction between the roles of their gods and christianity's saints? just because they're not called 'gods' people pray to them the same way that polytheists pray to gods. I lost something, let me pray to the saint of lost stuff; I want to have a good fishing trip, I should pray to Poseidon.
Just because they're not called gods, they're attributed roles and powers of a spiritual and religious nature. Is it that different to call someone the patron saint of X, or the God of X; assuming in any respect that there is still a higher power that's good at everything, we're still looking at a pantheon of divine beings.
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Post by Paco_Guerrera on Nov 13, 2008 13:50:09 GMT -4
Ill use the example I gave to pete. People pray to their dead loved ones for guidance all the time. Does that mean these people perceive Grandpa to become a god after he dies? No. Grandpa is not a god, and yet people pray to him. Just because people pray to something does not bestow godhood upon it.
Inthe end the answer lies simply in the actual beliefs of the church of Christianity. These beliefx state, quite explicitly that there is one God and no others. Now you can sit here and decide to say that all saints are gods and all angels are gods and im right cause I say so, and thats fine. But these are not the beliefs of the vast majority of the Christian community.
So basically I guess it comes down to believe whatever the hell you want, but Its not your belifs that actually matter, it is the beliefs of the actual followers of the religion in question. According to those followers, there is only one God.
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Post by Paco_Guerrera on Nov 13, 2008 13:55:38 GMT -4
Btw, I really see no end to this discussion. People arguing for polytheism will continue to say that all beings of a heavenly nature count as gods, while people arguing for monotheism will continue to refute that based on 2000 years worth of church teachings.
It will go on and on and on and on and on, just like every discussion based on religion. In the end there are no answers and people will hold their opinions, and frankly I dont see the point.
So Ive made my case. Believe what you want. I dont see much point is restating the things ive already said yet another time.
So to all I say, good discussion. I'm glad we rebounded from the locking and had good old fashioned debate, but I now take my leave.
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Poobar
Attention Whore
Posts: 221
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Post by Poobar on Nov 13, 2008 17:28:04 GMT -4
Quick lil remembrance to 2nd grade... Saints are just vessels of prayers in the catholic faith...
Smoke from incense is also a vessel of prayers...
Smoke is not supernatural but in some religions takes on supernatural characteristics.
Is the smoke a god... perhaps
Should the smoke be worshiped... if it is a god, then yes.
If it is not a god, than no...
Now, if Pete has smoked 1000 (far from accurate) cigarettes in his life, than to some religions Peter may be the devil. In others, he may just be a guy just trying to be very holy or kind of unhealthy. The problem with this argument is that I can make any religion polytheistic if I want to, and then whats the point of having a word when it loses its meaning.
Polytheism n. The worship of or belief in more than one god. The Catholics do not believe that there is more than one god. Whether they are wrong or right is irrelevant because Catholics make the distinction between God and all the other "beings".
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