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Post by Nethyr on Nov 11, 2008 9:49:10 GMT -4
I'm hoping this can be discussed somewhat objectively without people going on the attack / defensive, but lets see.
The question is, is Christianity polytheistic? Thoughts?
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Post by Hex on Nov 11, 2008 10:45:49 GMT -4
I had this "argument" with another person this week. After a lengthy debate, I came up with one truth: it is a topic not worth discussing. It is not something that can rarely be "discussed somewhat objectively without people going on the attack / defensive." Your answer comes down to what you personally want to accept as belief.
Most Christians believe that the Holy Trinity is not three separate deities, but one. It is one of the Holy Mysteries. Christians assert that this is not a form of polytheism, as the three forms are all a part of the same God. It is accepted on faith that God be both “one” and “three” without a contradiction. The Christian community teaches that its religion is monotheistic. God the Father, God the Son, and God Holy Spirit are all one in the same. Jesus Christ was God's embodiment of Himself on Earth. The Holy Spirit was the least "explained" to me in Church. I remember being taught that the Holy Spirit was more of a counselor, to pray to when in need of strength.
Non-Christians will see this as silly or impossible or polytheism.
In my opinion, it is not a subject that needs debate. It is what you personally believe. "Faith" means taking things that seem impossible and believing in them. Don't "debate" it. Do research on it from different sources and come to your own conclusions.
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Post by Nethyr on Nov 11, 2008 11:16:38 GMT -4
Completely understandable if you feel that it's not a fairly discussable topic.
My first thoughts didn't even go to the trinity, although eventually some excerpts of Jesus talking to / questioning his God / Father as a separate entity came to mind. My mind first went to every other holy thing that Christians generally pray to or accept as more than human.
I guess my definition of a "God" in the "qualifying as polytheistic" sense is something that's worshipped (or anti-worshipped, for lack of a better term), and has some more-than-human abilities.
Mary we can call "borderline" in this case, since she's certainly worshipped, although we can attribute her virgin birth to divine influence of an outside force and her as just a vessel.
That outside force however, an angel. Divine beings, worshipped, more-than-human powers. Does this not count as polytheism? I'm having a hard time knocking this one out. Especially the Lucifer / Devil / Satan (whichever you prefer) example. A divine being who challenged for power of the heavens. This specific incident reminds me of polytheism in a very Mt. Olympus kind of way.
Thoughts?
(Again just a pre-warning to all. If it's too sensitive a topic to discuss objectively, please pardon yourself. Thanks.)
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Poobar
Attention Whore
Posts: 221 
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Post by Poobar on Nov 11, 2008 13:28:19 GMT -4
We believe in one God, (Nuff said)
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Jesus Was a lord, not a god... obviously)
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father. (They are one in being)
Through him all things were made. All the rest... Angels, Saints, Mary... were made by him, I dont think they are considered gods ...Achillies wasn't a god...
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (here is where it gets confusing, he is sitting next to himself)
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, (When he does will it create another section of God)
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
I guess the real question is do you consider Angels gods... and my answer is the Catholics and the rest of the Christian faiths don't ...In medieval angelology, angels constituted the lowest of the nine celestial orders (seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominations or dominions, virtues, powers, principalities or princedoms, archangels, and angels).
However interesting this may be I don't really seem to care, I'm just bored.
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Post by Paco_Guerrera on Nov 11, 2008 13:54:41 GMT -4
Christianity is in no way polytheistic. All teachings and beliefs center around one God, the father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
Your definition of God is the flaw here. Being simply venerated or praying to something does not make something a "god". Mary, the saints, the angels, Lucifer, demons, etc etc are not considered to be gods. They are the supporting cast. All of these things originated with the one true God who created existence. The thing is creations such as angels are viewed as superhuman creatures existing alongside God so they are given a certain level of significance, but they are just constructs, much like human beings. Lucifer was just an angel who thought he was cooler then he was.
As far as praying to beings that are not God, its just a thing people do. People also pray to their dead relatives for guidance but that doesnt mean they think grandpa is a "god". Praying to Mary, or the Saints is basically the same thing. We venerate certain beings more because of the roles they played in the life of Jesus or other parts of the bible, but we do not view them as "gods" or put them on equal footing with the one true God.
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Post by Paco_Guerrera on Nov 11, 2008 13:58:05 GMT -4
You need to post more frank.
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Post by Nethyr on Nov 11, 2008 14:14:43 GMT -4
I agree that Christians don't consider angels "gods" but are we just talking syntax here? When I think "God", I think some kind of divine supernatural being with powers beyond that of humans, which people worship. Bonus points if someone falling off a cliff might wish for you before he hits the bottom. Angels certainly fall dead in this category (and by angels I mean everything from the actual choir of angels up to metatron / seraphim depending on the faith).
To go further with angels, Christians say that Satan is / was an angel. Spiritual Satanists say that he's a god. They're both talking about the same entity, they just differ in their opinion of source and interpretation. There even seems to be a smaller sect called "Angelism" which worships Angels as their central figure.
Are we mincing words as to what a "God" actually is? Can the idea be defined?
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Post by Hex on Nov 11, 2008 14:50:59 GMT -4
Completely understandable if you feel that it's not a fairly discussable topic. It's not a worthwhile, discussable topic. If you have enough research on the Chirstian religion, it is pretty cut and dry. I'm not saying that Christianity doesn't have its "stretches of the rational mind" (rationality and faith are two seperate conditions). If you need to "discuss" it and have to analyze through it, then you're obviously not on the "faith" side of the debate. Mary we can call "borderline" in this case, since she's certainly worshipped, although we can attribute her virgin birth to divine influence of an outside force and her as just a vessel. Mary is not borderline at all! While human, she was a tremendously faithful woman whom God chose to bear the burden of birthing the son of God, as well as living through his loss @ the crucifixion. No, she is not a god, but she is considered "holy" due to her nature. That outside force however, an angel. Divine beings, worshipped, more-than-human powers. Does this not count as polytheism? I'm having a hard time knocking this one out. Especially the Lucifer / Devil / Satan (whichever you prefer) example. A divine being who challenged for power of the heavens. This specific incident reminds me of polytheism in a very Mt. Olympus kind of way. The comparison to Mt. Olympus is comical. Ancient Greeks and Romans invented god to explain scientific phenomenon that they did not have the rational to prove. And as far as angels and saints go, they were never worshipped. They were God's soldiers for lack of a better word. They may be prayed to, but are never workshiped. Any chance you can call Kellenberg and get a refund of the tuition for the "religious education" part of your high school career? Out of curisoity, did this topic come up to really "get to the heart" of a matter, or to simply spark debate? Save debate for politics, something obviously godless and very, very suseptable to human interpretation and frailty. |
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Post by Hex on Nov 11, 2008 14:59:16 GMT -4
I agree that Christians don't consider angels "gods" but are we just talking syntax here? Not at all. Read throught the creed Frank posted again. When I think "God", I think some kind of divine supernatural being with powers beyond that of humans, which people worship. So Santa Claus is a god in your book? Ok. Say hi to Donner and Blitzen for me. And by angels I mean everything from the actual choir of angels up to metatron / seraphim depending on the faith. Stop watching Dogma. Yes, it was funny, but really? Don't take what Kevin Smith says to heart. He talks about muse in the same breath with demons and angels. To go further with angels, Christians say that Satan is / was an angel. Spiritual Satanists say that he's a god. First off, satanists are fucking morons. Too much time spent with the goth chicks in the Brick, Pete. I guarantee that being face with a gun to the face, they's start crying, streak mascara down their faces (men and women) and starting praying to God Almighty. Are we mincing words as to what a "God" actually is? Can the idea be defined? Think from perspective. A god? You brought up Christianity. There is not a god. Just the God. |
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Post by Hex on Nov 11, 2008 15:00:54 GMT -4
BTW, remember all the bad looks I got when I wore the "Christianity is stupid. Give up." shirt. Ah, to be young and cynical.
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Post by Nethyr on Nov 11, 2008 15:01:30 GMT -4
It's not a worthwhile, discussable topic. If you have enough research on the Chirstian religion, it is pretty cut and dry. I'm not saying that Christianity doesn't have its "stretches of the rational mind" (rationality and faith are two seperate conditions). If you need to "discuss" it and have to analyze through it, then you're obviously not on the "faith" side of the debate. Please don't dismiss the topic outright. I know a couple Unitarians who would like to challenge your attempt. Any chance you can call Kellenberg and get a refund of the tuition for the "religious education" part of your high school career? Out of curisoity, did this topic come up to really "get to the heart" of a matter, or to simply spark debate? Save debate for politics, something obviously godless and very, very suseptable to human interpretation and frailty. There are no sinister ulterior motives. I simply wanted to discuss it, objectively and without personal bias and thought others might want to as well. If we can't keep from personal swings I'll lock the thread and apologize for my bad judgement for bringing this up in this arena. |
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Post by Nethyr on Nov 11, 2008 15:03:27 GMT -4
Thread locked. My apologies to all.
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Post by Paco_Guerrera on Nov 11, 2008 16:04:04 GMT -4
Ive unlocked this thread because I think it should be possible for us to have a valid discussion without resorting to name calling or being snarky. Lets just be civil and have a goddamned conversation without resorting to name calling. That shouldnt be too hard. Tom, please continue to contribute. I realize this seems directed specifically at you. You made several very valid statements, but we all just need to try to keep personal attacks to a minimum. I know its hard since pete is a total cockwhore, but I think we can do it  |
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Post by Nethyr on Nov 11, 2008 16:07:07 GMT -4
Jim's call and I respect his decision and will leave it open. Any viewpoints whatsoever are welcome and my feelings have no relevancy to their validity as statements, or on this forum, as long as they're delivered respectfully.
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Post by Hex on Nov 11, 2008 16:14:34 GMT -4
However, dismissing facts (according to the relevant religions) as "Kevin Smith" knowledge, "Say Hello to Donner and Blitzen" and "X are fucking morons" doesn't fit the bill of mature discussion. The content is fine, I appreciated the actual content that you shared. However delivering content while calling any point other than yours morons or just dismissing it, isn't fair to anyone. That's all. So it is either 100% content or 100% humor? A)Kevin Smith, Brick comments, and Santa Claus were attempts to poke fun at your logic, not to insult you personally. Touchy bastard. B)I do not apologize to the Satanic population of nethyr.com for my comments to them as morons. C) My opinion is that bringing up Satanism is a bit ridiculus. I thought we were discussion "religion" not something based on evil and hate. Putting that in the same breath as a discussion of real religious belief was not beneficial to the discussion in my opinion. My piece is said. I've tried to educate not convert (even I don't know where my religious beliefs are 100%.) The points I brought up were what I was instructed by priests and clergy. The humor was mine. I have nothing left to say. Carry on. |
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